Florida Tax Attorney, Darrin T. Mish appears on Blog Talk Radio with host Scot Ferrel

Scott Ferrall: All right, my guest tonight – let's go ahead and get to that,
because I've got some folks who have got a lot of questions and
they want them answered, concerning the IRS, what you can do, and
if you are I guess in the holding with the IRS, and you have done
something that you have got to get handled.
Let me go ahead and give the formal introduction for my guest
tonight. My guest tonight is Darrin Mish. Darrin is a graduate of
Golden State University. The cool thing is he has been rated by the
folks in his field as achieving the highest levels of professional
skills, and integrity.

Normally, we always kid attorneys, especially my buddies. We kid
attorneys about the word 'integrity' in attorney of a lawyer being
hooked into the same sentence. He's the real deal. He is a friend
of mine. I've gotten a chance to spend some time with him out in
LA.

He was also nominated "Practioner of the Year" in 2002, by the
American Society of IRS Problem Solvers. He is the real deal. I
have the top expert, the top IRS attorney on my show tonight.

I am going to go ahead and give you a chance to get a pen or a
pencil, get ready to take some notes. Also, if you have got any
questions tonight, you can ask him.

Darrin, are you on the line?

Darrin Mish: Yeah, I am Scott. How are you?

Scott: Did I give you enough introduction here, or do I need to go back
and say more really nice things about you?

Darrin: [laughs] No, no. no. That's fine. I am actually blushing right now.
If we were on a different show or a slightly different topic, we
could go on and on about that political stuff all night. That would
be a whole lot of fun. I would really like to give my opinions
about that, but let me tell you a couple of things that I do know
about the new Healthcare Bill. Don't let me get too far off on this
tangent, because we want to take some calls. We want to help some
people tonight.
Here is the deal. As much as this Healthcare Bill is going to help
my business, I mean our business has already exploded once
President Barack Obama was elected, but now the IRS and this new
Healthcare Bill, the IRS is going to be hiring somewhere between
16,500-18,000 new tax collectors.

You might ask, "Well, why do they need so many tax collectors?"
Incidentally, that is going to cost $10 billion. A billion with a
"B." It is going to cost that much to hire that many tax
collectors. Why do they need so many new tax collectors? They need
them, because every single month, the IRS is going to check us
individually and corporately to make sure that we have approved
health insurance.

So, if we think the IRS problems are bad now, and that the IRS has
too much control, and too much insight into our private lives, boy,
we haven't seen nothing yet!

Scott: I know we haven't. I was about ready to throw a chair through the
TV last night when I saw the vote go through.

Darrin: Well, all we can do is what you said, and vote with a conscious in
November, and see what we can do about getting some of this stuff
repealed.

Scott: If you don't, the end of the Republic is here. I mean listen to
this folks, Darrin just said it, $10 billion. I mean, right now, we
are flat broke. Medicaid when broke last week – actually, it was
Social Security. Social Security is broke.
Now, we are borrowing money from the Chinese, a government that is
not very friendly to the United States. So, everything that we are
doing from here on out, we are borrowing to do. The debt ceiling
right now is $12.7 trillion. Our debt payment per year is $958
billion. We only collected a little over $1 trillion in taxes last
year. That is frightening!

Darrin: Well, Scott, I am actually doing my part to make sure that they
collect a little less than a trillion this year. [laughs]

Scott: Oh, yeah. All right, well tonight's guest is Darrin Mish. Darrin's
office is in Tampa. Let me go ahead and give you his website,
GetIRSHelp.com, a very easy website. Let me give you his phone
number, 888-438-6474.
All right, Darrin, I gave you that glowing introduction. Now,
Golden State University, that is in San Francisco, correct?

Darrin: It is actually Golden Gate University, like the bridge.

Scott: Oh, Golden Gate. I was thinking Golden State Warriors, sorry.

Darrin: That is all right.

Scott: I am a basketball running through here. Now, are you originally
from San Francisco?

Darrin: I am originally from Southern California. After I got done
graduating at UC Santa Barbara – who incidentally was in the NCAA
Tournament, but lost sadly to Ohio State, I moved up to the Bay
Area to go to school at Golden Gate University. Then after
graduation in 1993, I made my way out to sunny Tampa, Florida. I
had enough of that fog and cold, wet weather out there in San
Francisco.

Scott: I bet. See, I have never been there. I have always been to Southern
California. I love Southern California, could live there, but there
is too many people per square foot, but I had to stay in the South
of the United States.

Darrin: Famous quote by Mark Twain, "The coldest winter he ever spent was a
summer in San Francisco." It is very cold there in the summertime.

Scott: [laughs] That is really nice.
All right, folks. You do have the top expert in the business on the
phone tonight. He is one of the top tax attorneys in the United
States. He is also part of America's Premier Experts. The only way
you can get into that group, I, myself am in that group for about
eight years, is to be an expert in your field.

Now, Darrin, you and I met in LA. What hits me is I have so many
friends that ask about top IRS attorneys, or attorneys period, that
can help with the IRS. What made you decide to get into this
particular type of law practice?

Darrin: It is a really interesting story. I actually worked for the
government, not the IRS, but I was actually a public defender for a
couple of years out of law school. After that couple of years, I
went out into private practice on my own, practicing Criminal
Defense.
It is interesting, in law school, they never teach you a darn thing
about actually running a business. I have heard the same thing
about dental school, and medical school, and whatnot, but we didn't
learn anything about business whatsoever.

So, I go off on my own, and I start my own business. I think I know
everything, because I am a young man, and I am an attorney. So, lo
and behold a couple of years in, I find myself with a tax problem.
When I go searching for help for my tax problem, because I don't
know exactly what to do, I can't find any help in my local area.

So, this is interesting, and this is kind of a hard thing to admit,
but I was actually engaged at the time or I might have been
married. I am not sure, but it was fairly recent or new in our – we
hadn't been married very long, if we were married. I finally
admitted to my wife that I owed the IRS some money. It was not a
lot of money in the overall scheme of things. It was less than
$10,000, but it was something that I was keeping from her, because
I was really ashamed of it.

I didn't know what to do, and there was some of that machismo
wrapped in there too, like "I should know how to deal with this."
It was funny, once I admitted it to her, we sat down and we talked
about it. We ended up facing the problem, and we ended up working
it out with the IRS.

So, after I got that experience of handling my own problem, it
occurred to me that there were lots and lots of folks just like me
out there that probably had tax problems. So, I went on a search, I
went on a quest, and I found a mentor who helped teach me
everything that I needed to know about handling tax problems.

I really dove in head first. I learned so much that within two
years of being mentored by this gentleman, I actually was then
hired by him to teach other attorneys, CPAs, and enrolled agents
around the country, how to handle tax problems.

So, that is actually how I really wound up getting into this niche
is I actually had my own tax problem.

Scott: How did your wife handle the truth?

Darrin: It is funny. They say, "The truth shall set you free," right? She
was very kind. She was very understanding, and that has been the
case in almost every other case, where I have run into similar
circumstances. It is very common for one spouse to be withholding
that information from their spouse, and they will typically come in
and speak to me. I always counsel them to go ahead and tell the
truth, because that anxiety that they have built up is almost
always worse than their spouse's reaction.

Scott: Oh, yeah. Now, I was reading your website today. You have a very
interesting story about a man that was in a coma. Could you tell
that story? I mean, I want the listeners to hear this story.
Folks, this is an amazing story of what Darrin was able to do for
this individual. Also, it is amazing of how ruthless the IRS can
really be with an individual. Give us a quick overview of this.

Darrin: OK. Here is a quick overview. This gentleman was a contractor. He
was actually a handyman, and he owed the IRS. He had not filed for
many years. I mean, that is not uncommon by the way for there to be
non-filers. Something like 10 percent of the population has not
filed tax returns. Incidentally, once you do that for one year,
then the next year comes before you know it, and then the next
year, and then the next year. So, commonly people come in, and they
haven't filed a tax return in about 10 years.
So, this gentleman was in that situation. We ended up filing tax
returns, or preparing tax returns for him, and then filing them. By
the time those were all done, and penalties and interest, and
everything was added, he owed somewhere between $80,000-$100,000.
He was earning as a handyman something like $30,000-$40,000 a year.

Now, I don't know anywhere in this country where that is a lot of
money. So, we ended up filing what is known as an "Offer in
Compromise." An Offer in Compromise is where you can make a deal
with the IRS to settle for less. It is a program setup by Congress,
so that people can get a fresh start and get on with their lives.

So, Congress has set up this deal, because they understand the
present value of money. So, money today for sure is much better
than "We might get more money in the future." So, we filed this
Offer in Compromise for this gentleman, and it was pending for
quite a long time.

In the past, it was not uncommon for Offers and Compromise to be
pending for like two years before they were either accepted or
rejected. The IRS also treats most offers like an insurance company
treats a claim. It is kind of funny that this analogy comes up
today, of all days. Most insurance companies deny claims right off
the bat, because some very large percentage of people will just go
away, and the IRS does that with Offers and Compromise as well.

So, they initially rejected his offer, and we offered – I don't
know. I can't remember exactly how much, but something like around
$5000. It was initially rejected, and then we filed an appeal.
While the appeal was pending for six months or so, my client
actually contained this very rare infection. He was cleaning up
some disgusting house, like a foreclosure kind of deal, and he got
cut right through his boot. The bacteria that was in the house
ended up getting into his bloodstream, and put him in a coma. He
was actually in the hospital for quite some time.

So, what happened is we went ahead with the appeal, and I was able
to secure a settlement with the IRS to settle his case for $3000-
$4000, something like that. The problem was the gentleman was in a
coma, so he couldn't sign the paperwork. So, I had to just stall,
and do everything I could to keep the case open long enough, hoping
that he would awaken from his coma. A long story short, he did. He
was able to sign. We literally had him sign the day he woke up or
the day after, and his offer went through. He paid the IRS. The
case was settled, and he lived happily ever after.

Scott: Now, did commonsense ever enter and say, "Hey. The dude is in a
coma. Why don't we put this on hold until the guy wakes up?"

Darrin: Well, it is a beaurocracy, and it would not have been hard at all
for us to convince the IRS to place him in what is known as
"Currently Not Collectible Status." That status means that the IRS
agrees that he has no present ability to make any payments.
However, I knew this gentleman. I had been working with him for
something like three years. I knew that when he awoke, that status
Currently Not Collectible, would not be a win in his eyes. So, I
did whatever I could moving heaven and earth, to make sure that we
kept that thing open long enough so that he could sign. Again, it
worked out.

Scott: True success story, folks. Again, let me give you Darrin's website
and his phone number. His website is GetIRSHelp.com, and I am going
to give you his toll free number: 888-438-6474.
My guest tonight is Darrin Mish. Darrin is one of the top – what do
you call yourself Darrin, tax attorney, IRS problem maker?

Darrin: [laughs] I am definitely not an IRS problem maker. I would say tax
attorney.

Scott: All right, now Darrin you have got a book coming out. We're in a
book together, "The Power of Principles for Success." What was your
chapter in that book, and what can the listeners look for when they
purchase it?

Darrin: My chapter was actually about goal setting, and it was about goal
setting in a professional sense and a business sense. In the
context that we're talking about here, I think that there is a
principle that applies as well, and that is for most taxpayers, it
took many years to get themselves into the situation where they
have to come and see me.
So, to expect that you are going to make one phone call or do
something really easy and this is all going to go away, is probably
not a realistic thing. So, you need to set goals along the way to
make sure that the outcome that you desire comes out. So, for
example, make a goal today to visit the website, or make a goal
today to call someone like me to get some help, and then set an
appointment and then attend the appointment, or make the phone
appointment, whatever it is.

When we, for example, ask you for financial documentation so that
we can help solve your case, set a goal to actually meet the
deadline. Now, it sounds really simplistic, but I mean it is that
simple, in that we need in our lives to be able to set goals, and
then accomplish them if we ever hope to have the outcomes that we
expect, and that we deserve.

So, that is really what my chapter in that particular book is all
about.

Scott: Oh, yeah. I mean, my chapter in the book is "See the Finish Line."
Unless you can see the finish line, you are never going to do
anything. I always teach people to see the finish line, and work
backwards to get to the finish line. It is so funny, because people
will avoid things. They won't talk about the elephant in the room,
and they think it is just going to go away. Folks, the IRS is not
going to go away. The government has plenty of money. They have
plenty of time and money to destroy your lives.

Darrin: It is your money. [laughs]

Scott: And it is your money paying to destroy your own life!
Now, I have got a whole series of questions for Darrin to answer
for me tonight. So, go ahead and get your paper and pencil. Write
these down if you have got any issues with the IRS. Make sure you
place a call or go to Darrin's website, and see how he can help
you. Again, that website GetIRSHelp.com.

All right, Darrin. Let me go ahead and start with the questions
tonight. I have got several sitting in front of me, and I want to
get answered. All right, here is the first one; can the IRS really
take a persons home, bank account and paycheck?

Darrin: OK. Everybody wants to hear about, "Can the IRS really take my
home?" In my state, in Florida, we have something called the
"Homestead Exemption." It is a state law, and what it says is that
most predators cannot touch your home if you have declared it your
homestead, where you live, your family's home.
In Florida, we always have people come in and say, "The IRS can't
take my home, because of homestead." Wrong. There is something
called the "Supremacy Clause" in the Constitution that says that,
"Federal Law supersedes State Law." That is actually one of the
things that we are going to be dealing with in the Healthcare
debate, but the IRS can actually take your home.

Now, in the vast majority of cases the IRS doesn't want your home,
especially given today's economic climate. There is a very good
chance that your home is worth a lot less than the amount of tax
that you owe. It is reserved for rather extreme circumstances.

I don't want to go too far into this, but there is a certain group
of people that have constitutional objections to the tax code. They
will file hundreds and thousands of pages worth of documents,
raising arguments that have been declared null and void to the
courts. Those types of folks usually get singled out for special
attention by the IRS, and most of the home seizures that I have
seen during my career have been of people who have actually gone
down that road. So, homes can be seized.

Now, bank accounts and paychecks are a whole lot easier. Let's talk
about the bank account. If the IRS issues a notice, what is called
a "Final Notice of Intent to Levy," and then 45 days goes by and
the taxpayer does not appeal, then the IRS can issue what is known
as a "Bank Levy." What that means is they send a notice to the
bank, and they are entitled to everything in your bank account, up
and including how much your total liability is.

So, in other words, you could have just gotten paid and your
mortgage money is in there, your utility money is in your bank
account, and the IRS issues a levy. They suck it all out of there,
and the odds of getting it back are not real good. You do have 21
days after this levy has occurred to fight it out with the bank and
the IRS, and typically you are only going to have real good success
if you can argue that they levied the wrong person. So, Bank Levies
are really bad. We don't like Bank Levies to happen, because they
are really hard to undue.

The Bank Levy is a one time levy. It doesn't mean that they can't
do it more than once, but it means that it is not continuous. So,
it is kind of like, they'll do one now, and they might do one in
six months, but it is not a continuous levy.

Now, a Wage Levy is a little big different. A Wage Levy is when
they issue a levy notice to your employer. A Wage Levy is
continuous, which means your wages will continued to be garnished
until the full amount of the liability is paid off.

Now, there is actually a schedule that tells your employer how much
of your paycheck that you get to get, that you get to keep if you
have a wage garnishment, but a nice rule of thumb is you get to
keep a whopping 15 percent of your paycheck. So, wage garnishments
are really bad as well.

Scott: Well, when Barack Obama gets through with his tax hike, that might
be the only thing we have left. It's not really going to matter.

Darrin: [laughs] Well, we have represented a number of people over the
years that are actually what we call 'levy proof.' I mean, they
make so little money, that there is nothing for the IRS to get even
if they do garnish, but that is not a happy place to be.

Scott: Well, no. All right, now next question – everybody get that at
home. If bad things happen, what is the best thing that an
individual can do?

Darrin: Well, at the risk of sounding self-serving, I would say call
someone like us to help you, because if you call the IRS – think
about it. Have you ever heard that cliché, "Hi. I am from the
government, and I am here to help"? That is kind of what happens.

Scott: [laughs]

Darrin: You call the IRS, they've just garnished your bank account or your
paycheck, and you're just calling 'uncle.' They usually play nice
on that first call, and they kind of just lead you down the garden
path, but remember that the IRS employees work for the Federal
Government. That is their job is to collect money from you.
Whereas, a tax attorney such as myself, my job is to protect the
taxpayers interest and being able to get for them. So, I would say
the best thing to do is not to call the IRS. That is probably the
worse thing to do, but call and get some help from someone like us.
Now, if that's economically not possible or feasible, then you
might want to visit our website GetIRSHelp.com. The truth is there
is a couple of hundred videos on our website, and the answer to
virtually any question you can imagine is contained there on the
website. I actually tell people, believe it or not, how to solve
their own problems, but the vast majority of people aren't
interested. They would rather have someone, who has been there,
done that a 100 times or a 1000 times, instead of trying to do it
themselves.

Scott: Man! You are like the Calvary. I mean, everybody gets so stressed
out about the IRS, and we'll see the biggest stress come in about
three weeks. I've got a non-profit. I have called the IRS five
times, and have gotten five separate answers on what I was supposed
to do with my non-profit. It is kind of frightening, because the
government – you can't complain, and they're never wrong. So, it is
always your fault.

Darrin: I have a funny story about that. One time, I filed an extension for
my own personal return. This has been several years ago. I got a
nasty gram around April the 20th or 25th saying, "We didn't get
your extension on time. You owe us $500 penalty." So, despite
knowing better, I called the IRS and I complained, and I said, "No.
I sent it in on time." The lady said, "Well, if you don't have that
little green certified thing, then it was late, and we win and you
lose." I said, "As a matter of fact, I do have that little
certified receipt. Where would you like me to send it?"
So, the moral of the story is if you are going to file an
extension, have some way to track it so they can't say that it was
late.

Scott: I only send my tax returns either FedEx and get them signed, or get
the little green slip. [sneeze] Sorry, folks. I still got this
sinus infection. I am trying not to cough on the air tonight.
I think we have a call Darrin. Let me go ahead and see. I am
running my own switchboard now. I do not have a producer, so it
takes me awhile to get … Caller? Do we have a caller on the line?

Ann: Yes.

Scott: OK. What would be your question for Darrin tonight?

Ann: Hey, Darrin. I am really glad to hear your show, and it is great to
know that there are people like you out there to help us little
guys out.
My question is, I became an independent contractor last year, and
just kind of stumbling and bumbling my way through life. I wasn't
really prepared to put aside taxes and things like that properly,
and now I am going to be filing a tax return for 2009. What is my
best strategy? Do I need somebody like you to go ahead and kind of
correct me to file my taxes? What is the best thing for me to do?

Darrin: I am really glad that you asked that question. What is your name by
the way?

Ann: Ann.

Darrin: Hi, Ann. I am really glad that you asked that question, and it
depends. I have a two part answer for you, and one part is going to
be a little bit educational. The first answer is – of course, I am
a lawyer, I am going to say it depends. It depends on how much
money you are going to ultimately owe. I would suggest that if you
are going to owe $25,000 or less, you're probably not going to need
a tax pro like me. You're probably going to be able to call the IRS
yourself, despite the fact that I just told you not to, and setup
what is called an "Installment Agreement," which is nothing more
than a payment plan.
Now, here is the rule of thumb. If the taxpayer owes $25,000 or
less, and has not had an Installment Agreement in the prior five
years, then if you make an offer that would full pay the liability
over 60 months, then you're going to get an Installment Agreement
almost automatically.

Now, I understand that might have been difficult to understand, so
I am going to give you a hypothetical. If you owe $25,000, if you
offered about $500 a month, that would full pay within 60 months,
and the IRS would most likely just rubberstamp that and say, "OK."

So, it is going to depend on how much you owe, and how much you can
afford to pay. Now, if you find that you prepare the return and you
owe more than you can afford to pay, that is really just our
baseline sort of category is – if you owe more than you can afford
to pay, then, of course, it is going to make sense to go ahead and
call someone like us.

Now, I wanted to say something else about people in your situation,
because it is super common, where you are an independent contractor
for the first time, and you are not sure what you are supposed to
do. So, I am going to go ahead and tell you what my wife made me
do, going back to that tax problem that I had, and that is you have
to make estimated tax payments. You use Form 1040ES, and you have
to make those quarterly. You have to pay those four times a year.

So, what I do is every time I pay myself, I withhold somewhere
between 20 percent and 30 percent, and I set it aside in a
segregated account for the estimated tax payments.

So, again here is an example. If I write myself a check for $1000
out of my corporate account, I am going to set aside somewhere
between $200-$300, put it in this special account. Right before the
due date of each one of those deadlines, I am going to take all the
money in there, and I am going to send it off to the government.

Now, it is also important to note that you don't have to pay only
on the deadlines. You don't have to pay every three months. You can
pay every week or every month. If you are the type of person that
has trouble saving money because there is always some new emergency
that comes up, then by all means, send it in more frequently.

Because it is one of those situations where like if you own a house
and you don't pay your mortgage, they come and take your house. It
is very similar with the IRS. If you don't make your estimated tax
payments, eventually really bad things can happen.

Ann: Well, thanks very much for the answer. I appreciate the
information.

Darrin: Thanks for the question, Ann. I appreciate it.

Scott: Any more questions?

Ann: No. That's it. Thank you.

Scott: All right. Well, thanks for the call tonight. Darrin, thanks for
the answer. All right, take care. Bye-bye.
That was actually a good question, wasn't it?

Darrin: Yeah. I love that question.

Scott: A lot of people probably have that question. It is like, "What do I
do?" and then they panic.

Darrin: Right. [laughs]

Scott: Now, I have got my next question. Now, here is the deal. I have
heard of some people go for years without filing taxes. Now, that
is one thing. What do they do if they have no records to go along
with the filing of the taxes?

Darrin: Well, there is a couple of things that we can do. We can actually
file what is called a "Freedom of Information Act Request" with the
government, and we can obtain their transcripts from the IRS going
back, usually about seven years. So, we can get the W2s, the 1099s,
the 1098s and so on, from the government itself.
The statute of limitations for the crime of failure to file a tax
return is six years. So, typically, we will go ahead and have a non
-filer file the last 6-7 years, so that we can avoid the criminal
aspect. That is the way that we get the records from the
government.

Now, if that is not good enough, like let's say that they were
operating a business as well, and they had business expenses. They
can make what is known as a "Good Faith Estimate" of what their
expenses were. There has to be a declaration if that is the case,
but 'knock on wood,' I have never had a problem where we have filed
back tax returns, where we made good faith estimates of the
expenses.

That being said, these are not the most aggressive tax returns in
the world when we file those, because typically the taxpayer is
going to owe more than they can afford to pay. That takes us out of
the examination division of the IRS, where they are really worried
about, "How much do you owe?" and puts this right into the
collection division of the IRS, where all they care about is
collecting the money.

So, again typically, a rule of thumb is if the taxpayer owes more
than they can afford to pay, there is almost always something that
we can do to help them out.

Scott: That is a blessing, folks. Did you hear that? There is almost
always something that he can do.
Let me go ahead and give you Darrin's website again if you are just
tuning in with us. My guest tonight is Darrin Mish. Darrin is the
problem solver if you have IRS issues. His website is
GetIRSHelp.com, number 888-438-6474.

Now, that brings me up to my next question. Will the IRS forgive
penalties and interest?

Darrin: Well, that is a good question. The penalties can be forgiven for
what is known as "Reasonable Cause." When you think about, "Well,
what does reasonable cause mean?" It means a darn good reason. Now,
typically, people will say to me, "Well, I didn't have the money.
Isn't that a good enough reason?" No. That is not a good enough
reason.
Let me give you some examples of good enough reasons – bizarrely
enough – drug abuse, alcohol addiction, mental health, severe
emotional disorders, divorce, death in the family, natural
disasters. Those are all examples of reasonable cause.

Typically, you can get at least one year's penalty excused if you
have reasonable cause. It becomes harder and harder once those
years cascade and start to add up. In other words, if you have
seven years of non-filing, it is going to be pretty hard to
convince the IRS that there is reasonable cause for the non-filing
of all seven years. However, there have been cases where we have
prevailed as far as that goes.

Now, let's talk about the interest. Interest is not usually
abatable, which means reducible, unless we can demonstrate that the
taxpayer relied upon written erroneous advice from the IRS. Now,
you had mentioned before you called the IRS five times and you get
five different answers. That is not written advice. That is oral
advice, and you cannot rely upon that to get interest waved. You
can only rely upon erroneous written advice. Well, to obtain
written advice from the IRS is pretty hard.

So, the rule of thumb is interest cannot be eliminated. However,
the interest that is associated with penalties that are reduced
does go away as well, if the penalties do. The rule of thumb on
penalties and interest for a late filed return is if you owed $5000
on a return with penalties and interest, it is probably going to
double. It is probably going to be about $10,000.

Scott: Isn't it great? You couldn't afford to pay it the first time, and
then they double it for you. With the wonderful United States
Government, the way we have now, they're still going to make you
pay it or put you in jail. It's great.

Darrin: Well, I'll be honest. I've been doing this for a long time through
a number of administrations, and I haven't seen a whole heck of a
lot of difference in collection or examination from the IRS.
I'm famous for saying the Republicans will lower your taxes and
will do everything they can do to collect every penny, and
Democrats will raise your taxes and they are not as aggressive.
Right now, it doesn't seem like there is going to be any slackening
of collection efforts at all, and if anything collection has
actually ramped up in the last several years.

Scott: That just drives me crazy. OK. Next question. When a business gets
in trouble, I understand that even employees can be held liable for
unpaid taxes. Is that a true statement?

Darrin: Well, it is possible, and let me explain this rather complicated
scenario. If you have a corporation, and most of our corporations
that we represent are single member corporations, that individual
can be held liable for about 65 percent of the total payroll tax
liability personally.
So, let's say I am the president of my corporation. I don't pay
$100,000 worth of payroll taxes. Ultimately, rough rule of thumb is
about $65,000 of that is going to flow through to me personally,
and the IRS is going to what to come call for my personal assets.

A lot of people think, "Oh. I set up a corporation. That
corporation protects me from liability from a variety of factors.
It is going to protect me from the government." No. Not
necessarily, because we have this principle in trying to the law.
Now, there are cases where employees can also be held liable,
because the standard for liability in this sort of scenario is; was
it willful? Was it knowing and willful?

So, you can have a situation where a bookkeeper or a treasurer, or
like a paper director or a paper officer on a corporation who knew
that the payroll taxes were not being paid, can actually be held
liable for this 65 percent of the payroll taxes. There has even
been cases where bankers and accountants have been held personally
liable for that trust fund portion of the payroll tax.

So, it is really crucially important, I want people to understand
this. You don't want to be an officer of the corporation or a
director of the corporation, that you don't have day-to-day control
over. Just for that reason, I have corporations other then my law
firm, and my wife is not on any of the corporations. You might
think, "Oh, that's because you are worried if you get a divorce or
something, then can't take you to the cleaners." No. It is actually
the opposite. It is in case we run into some kind of snag and we
can't make payroll, it is only me that is going down, it is not
going to take her down too.

You wouldn't believe how many husbands and wives, where it is the
husband's or the wife's business, but they put their spouse on
there as a 49 percent owner and vice president just to be nice, and
just to show them that they loved them, and then lo and behold a
payroll tax problem comes along, and they are both held jointly and
separately liable. So, that is a disaster.

Scott: Rule of thumb folks, if you want your husband or wife to know it,
just tell them you love them, leave them off the legal documents.
How is that? Does that work?

Darrin: [laughs] Yeah. That really does work. It sounds strange, but it is
one of these situations where we have seen this time and time
again. So, we don't want to see spouses who aren't intricately
involved in the business on the paperwork.

Scott: Just in case you have just tuned in, my guest tonight is Darrin
Mish, website: GetIRSHelp.com, phone number: 888-438-6474.
Next question. You talked early about submitting financials to IRS.
Can you tell me more about what you mean by 'allowable' expenses?

Darrin: Sure. Remember when I talked about submitting that Offer in
Compromise, and making an offer to settle for less with the IRS.
The amount of that offer is calculated using allowable expenses as
drawn up by the IRS – and let me explain a little bit better.
We have to fill out what is called a "Collection Information
Statement, " and we declare all of the income. Then we go through
some tables that the IRS has put forth, that talk about what kind
of expenses are allowable.

So, if you were going to submit an Offer in Compromise, and you
said you made $10,000 a month, but you had $9500 a month in
expenses because your mortgage is $7000. Well, wouldn't that be
great? It would be really easy to get an Offer in Compromise
through. For example, there is a max amount of housing and
utilities for every single county in the United States.

So, here in Hillsboro County, Florida, I haven't looked at the
standards yet. They just came out this month for this year, but I
want to say the max housing allowance for a family of two,
including your mortgage, your utilities, your real estate taxes,
your insurances, everything is about $1300 or $1400.

So, there is really an art to filling out the Collection
Information Statement, so that we can show and demonstrate to the
IRS that you have very little ability to pay. Now, we're not saying
that we're going to do anything illegal, unethical, or immoral in
helping you fill these out. We are going to make sure that they are
filled out truthfully and correctly, so that you get to take
advantage of every single dollar, and every single expense.

Now, there are some expenses where there are maximums like housing
and utilities, like I said. There is a maximum for what are known
as 'national' standards, which is like food, clothing, and other
miscellaneous expenses. There some maximum allowances for your car
payment and your other transportation expenses, but then there are
some expense categories that are unlimited such as healthcare -
again, comes back to that.

I actually had clients who were spending $10,000-$15,000 a month on
healthcare, because they had terminal diseases. They would get
those expenses allowed by the IRS, because we could demonstrate
that we were actually spending that.

So, that is what I am talking about when it comes to allowable
expenses, and it is actually a little bit of a puzzle to put those
things together. We have quite a bit of information on the website
that talk about how to fill those out, and then there is also a lot
of information on the IRS's website about how to get your allowable
expenses, and whatnot.

But, your typical Collection Information Statement that we get
back, that last page with the income and the expenses typically
comes back to us blank, because it is so intimidating and it is so
scary to people when they first see it.

Scott: Right. I have spent a lot of money on healthcare every month,
because I do everything naturally. I never use my health insurance,
but everything I do – I am the guy who beat bipolar disorder. I did
it naturally with the help of a medical doctor of course, but most
of my doctors don't take insurance. So, I always have quite a price
tag on the healthcare.
All right. Next question; what does having a federal tax lien
really mean?

Darrin: A federal tax lien is notice to the world that you owe the IRS
money. In most states they will file it in the Clerk of a Circuit
Courts Office, or in some states it is call the Recorders Office,
or in some states it is the Office of Deeds or Land Records.
Basically, it is notice to the world that you have this tax
problem, and you owe this money to the IRS.
Now, interestingly most people think that the federal tax lien only
attaches to their real property. They think that it only attaches
to their house, but in fact the law indicates that it attaches to
all of your property, real and personal, wherever it is. So,
technically that means that it attaches to your socks in your sock
drawer. Now, the IRS doesn't want the socks in your sock drawer,
but it attaches to every single thing that you own.

So, it is a good idea to avoid a federal tax lien if you can, and
it really puts a thumbprint on your credit report.

Scott: I can imagine. Thank goodness I have never had one of those. Don't
plan on getting one.
All right. Next question. If the IRS comes to your house, what
should a person do? That is not a day that I would want to have
happen.

Darrin: Well, there is a couple of different kinds of IRS officers. We're
going to talk real briefly about the really bad kind. These IRS
Revenue Agents, or actually Special Agents tend to travel in pairs,
and they have gold badges, and they carry guns. Those guys mean you
have a criminal problem, or you are about to have a criminal
problem. My best advice is shut your mouth. You are going to get
arrested anyway. Do not talk to them. Indicate that you will not
speak to them without the presence of an attorney. That is pretty
rare.
Now, the other type of IRS employee that is likely to come to your
house far more common is that of a Revenue Officer. A Revenue
Officer is actually a collections officer for the IRS. They don't
carry guns, and are not authorized to carry guns. They are not law
enforcement officers, and they carry a little plastic badge that
has their – it is just like an ID. It has their picture on it.

Now, the Revenue Officers job is to make nice with you, secure
entrance to your home with permission if possible, or your business
if possible, so that they can eyeball the type of stuff that you
have got, so that they can get a better idea of what your ability
to pay is going to be.

So, my advice is, if a Revenue Officer comes to your home is to say
– just keep them on the front porch, remember they don't have the
right to forced entry into your home, and you say something like,
"Oh. I am so glad you are here. I have been wanting to deal with
this for a very long time. I will have my lawyer call you," and
that would be the end of the conversation.

You don't have to be as formal and as stiff to say, "I am not going
to talk to you, without my lawyer present, " but you should say
something like that. "Hey. I have secured somebody to help me with
this, and I want you to go ahead and speak with them instead of
me."

The reason is the IRS Revenue Officer is going to make real nice
with you. They are going to tell you, "I am from the government,
and I am here to help." They are going to secure as much damming
information as they possibly can from you, so that they can really
screw you over, [laughs] for lack of a better term.

Scott: I live by a needle board, and Needle has got that on his website,
"Don't ever listen to… I am from the government, I am here to
help." That's our government. It creates problems, so they can
solve them.
All right. My guest tonight is Darrin Mish. If you need to go to
his website it is GetIRSHelp.com. His number: 888-438-6474.

Next question. I am curious about what happens if a person has no
money and no way to pay the IRS. What will happen to them?

Darrin: Well, that is one of those dichotomies. I mean that is actually a
good situation, where you owe more than you can afford to pay, and
you have no ability to pay them back. A bad situation is you feel
like you owe them more than you can afford to pay, but you have
lots of stuff that you can liquidate and pay them back – if that
makes sense.
So, the person who has no money or very little ability to pay is
really actually in pretty good shape. We should have talked about
this way back when, when we first started the interview, but there
is basically five ways to solve an IRS problem.

Now, we talked with Ann real briefly, and we talked about an
installment agreement, that is a payment plan. But, if this person
has no money and no ability to pay, then that is not going to be a
likely scenario for them.

The next thing is something called an "Offer in Compromise." That
is where we talked about with the gentleman that was in the coma.
An Offer in Compromise is where you can make a deal to settle for
less. It is based upon your ability to pay. So, someone with very
little money and very little ability to pay is most likely a pretty
good Offer in Compromise candidate.

The third option we talked about real briefly was "Currently Not
Collectible Status." Now, the neat thing about Currently Not
Collectible Status is the IRS will typically place the taxpayer in
that status for a year or two at a time.

Now, that leads me to the fourth solution that we didn't talk
about, and this is really juicy, Scott, did you know that there's a
collections, there's a statute of limitations for the collections
of tax, and what that means in English is, the IRS only has so many
years to get the money! That happens to be 10 years from the date
of the assessment of the tax.

So, if you were, if you had say a 2002 tax liability, and we're now
in 2010, and we were able to put you in Currently Not Collectible
Status, that means that at the end of two years or so, the IRS will
no longer be able to collect that money, because of the statute of
limitations. So, there's a scenario where someone with very little
money and very little ability to pay, could actually be in really
good shape.

The last solution is something that is really rare, a lot of people
don't know this, including about 90 percent of bankruptcy lawyers
and that is that taxes, income taxes in certain circumstances, can
be discharged in personal bankruptcy. Unbelievable, isn't it!

Scott: Yeah.

Darrin: There's actually three rules and I'm going to go over them real
fast, and I don't really expect anybody to understand, but in a
nutshell, the tax returns have to have been due for at least three
years. If those tax returns were filed late, they have to have been
filed for at least two years, and the taxes have to have been
assessed for at least 240 days. So, what that means is, that you
need a tax pro like myself to make those calculations.
So, what we typically do in that scenario is, we obtain the records
under the Freedom of Information Act request, and I know which
dates matter, we put that into some fancy software, and it will
spit out the dates that you can actually file bankruptcy and
actually have your taxes discharged.

Now, there's lots of variables, and there's lots of exceptions, but
there's another example of how someone with very little money, and
very little ability to pay; we just went over about four different
options that might be open to that person.

Scott: You know it's funny, because I interviewed, when I was doing a lot
of radio here in L.A., I interviewed a tax attorney, he came on my
show one day, he was actually doing debts and stuff, he never,
ever, said anything about this, and I asked him, and of all things,
he never mentioned that number five on the list, or number four, as
far as statute of limitations.

Darrin: [chuckle] You know there are secrets in this business, and a lot of
guys in this industry like to think that they can keep those things
secret from the public. Now, I'm the opposite, there's no way that
I could actually handle every case in the United States. So I want
to get this information out, so that people can stop suffering.

Scott: Oh yes.

Darrin: Because that's really what the name of the game is, is that most
people with tax problems are suffering mentally and emotionally,
their relationships are suffering, they're having anxiety problems,
and it just never goes away.

Scott: No, and since I have to do a lot of suicide counseling, not
counseling because I'm not a counselor, but coaching or just
handholding basically, and hugging, some of the suicides come from
just the stress of what the government has done to this individual.
I know one guy in North Carolina, his wife pleaded for six years to
get this case heard, they said he owed $100,000, he really didn't
know anything but nobody would listen. He eventually killed himself
and two months later the IRS forgave the debt.

Darrin: Yeah, so the moral of that story is, it's never as bad as you
actually…

Scott: No.

Darrin: … think it is.

Scott: No, and I wish I could have talked to the individual because it
comes back to any behavior, take the emotion out of it, look at the
variables, there's always a way to solve a problem. If you can
[inaudible 0:47:09] just talk to them.
And that leads me up to my next question, you just answered one
about the government. All right. Since I know you've dealt with
thousands of individuals in the past, which I'm sure you have,
what's the best advice a person dealing with the IRS, and want to
reduce the stress and sleepless nights they're experiencing, what
can they do? You know they call you. Take me from there. What can
they do?

Darrin: Well, they just need to recharge and get some help from somebody
who has been there and been through this situation hundreds if not
thousands of time. I have seen virtually everything that can go
wrong in a tax case and clients, for the most part, have all come
out far better than they came in.
So, that's the number one thing is get some help. Again, if you
don't feel like you can afford help or it's not feasible or you are
not ready, then go out onto the Internet and do some searching and
get educated. Because education in this niche is really going to
set you free. You are going to understand what the IRS can and
can't do. That should reduce your anxiety some.

But, the best thing to do is just be proactive and deal with the
situation. The situation is never as bad as you think it is. Let me
tell you a short story. I know we are running out of time.

I had a gentlemen come in to my office one time and he sat down. He
thought he owed $80,000.

I asked him, "Why do you think you owe $80,000? Do you have a bill
from the government?"

He said, "No. I haven't filed, as a matter of fact, but I just know
I am going to owe $80,000."

"Why do you think that?"

"Well, I am self employed and haven't filed for five years."

"OK. Well, do you have books and records?"

"Yes, I do."

Long story short, this guy had been putting this off for five
years. He was trembling when he came into my office. Long story
short, we prepared and filed the returns. He owed $5000.

I am not saying that's going to happen in every case, but that's a
real life true case. This guy suffered for five years under this
misperception that he owed $80,000.

Scott: So just be proactive. It saves a lot of stress. You are either on
offense or defense. I was a former basketball coach. I like being
on offense more. That means I am scoring.

Darrin: [laughs] Yeah, absolutely, and you have more control.

Scott: That's right. Let me get back to Ann. Ann is new in her business.
Right now what should she do? Go ahead and do the 1040EZ and get
going and paying her taxes.

Darrin: Because she is self-employed she cannot do a 1040EZ. She has to do
the 1040 long form with what's called Schedule C like Charlie and a
Schedule SE like self-employment.
Now, actually, we do prepare returns here, so you can give us a
call and we can help you prepare the return, but that's really what
you need to do is use the form 1040, the Schedule C and the
Schedule SE. Then once she has a better idea of what she is going
to owe, then that's going to dictate what her next step is.

Scott: OK, all right. Folks let me give you Darrin's website one more
time. We got about two minutes left in this show. It is
GetIRSHelp.com. His number is 888-438-6474.
If could say one thing – we got about 30 seconds before I got to
let you go.

What would you tell people right now, somebody that is at home
hiding under their mattress afraid of the future and what the IRS
can do, what would you tell them?

Darrin: There is definitely hope. There's all these programs. We talked
about five different possible solutions in this one hypothetical
case. There are actually many more possible solutions that we
didn't have time to talk about. You just need to be proactive and
you need to go out and seek some help.

Scott: All right, folks, don't forget Darrin is also in the book "Power
Principles for Success." That book will be out in July. I am also
in that one. I wrote a chapter on "Always see the finish line."
Darrin is a friend of mine. I respect him. I just don't have
buddies on my show. Let me make sure you understand this. I only
have the experts on my show.

Now, Darrin, I have got one more question I forgot to ask and this
always comes up to me when people talk to me. Can you help people
in other states outside of Florida?

Darrin: As a matter of fact we can. We represent clients in all 30 states
and on every continent except for Antarctica. We are still working
on that one.
Scott I wanted to tell you too, I have two more books that are
going to be coming out before the end of this summer. One's title
is "The IRS Battle Guide" and that will literally take you step by
step through just about any IRS problem you could possibly have and
the other one is entitled "Insider Secrets to Solving IRS
Problems." Those should both be available on Amazon.com, say around
July.

Scott: Cool! Man, I can't wait to read those. I am sure he is going to
send me a signed copy folks.
[laughter]

Scott: Actually, I've got to send you copies of mine.
Darrin, thank you so much for being on the show tonight. This has
been one of the best shows I have ever done because it's probably
one of the most useful shows I have ever had. Thank you so much and
don't worry I am going to have you back in probably three or four
months.

Darrin: Fantastic, Scott. I really appreciate it. I had lot of fun.

Scott: All right, take care.

Darrin: All right. Bye-bye.

Transcription by CastingWords

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